Wednesday, June 25, 2008

Al-Qaeda - history and future

Londonstani is struggling to decide whether he really likes this long article on al-Qaeda by Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank in the Independent (which was originally printed in The New Republic).

The pondering has already gone on over a cup of tea and two marmalade toast and instead of coming nearer to a conclusion, Londonstani has just come up with new points to put in his "pro" and "con" columns.

One of the things that really gets up Londonstani's journalistic nose is a media tendency to indulge in what he calls "snapshot explanation". This is where a quick look at any given situation is afforded miles of tortured explanation - manipulating historic events to show how they could never have led to any other conclusion except the one encapsulated by the snapshot in question. A good example resides in the lakes of ink wasted by British newspapers writing long-winded explanations of Obama's political triumph and revolutionary methods just before Hillary's win at the New Hampshire primary in January. Really, it was rather amusing to see the papers have to talk up Hillary's win to justify their premature exaltations. Londonstani boycotted comment and analysis for a whole week after that.

This article seems to fall into the same bracket. And looks like it's behind the curve at the same time. Yes, AQ looks like its suffering in Iraq. AQ or AQ-inspired attacks in the UK have been foiled and their perpetrators put on trial. While the group hasn't put on a major attack elsewhere for quite a while. A few people - officials and analysts - have been saying that the downturn in the group's fortunes is due to fatigue amongst its intended audience - Sunni Muslims - for its hyper violent methods.

Now, this might be the case but it is at very best an extrapolation from what we see around us and not a fact. It doesn't take into account what's happening on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border, whether the group is shifting tactics, evolving or changing focus. At least one new development that makes Londonstani think it's too soon to consign AQ to history are new reports that suggest its ideas and rhetoric are spreading to a new "self radicalising" audience in the West.

The writers also take as fact information released by the Egyptian authorities that Sayyid Imam el Sherif "recanted" his violent ideology in jail. Sherif - a former mentor of Ayman al Zawahiri - was jailed by Yemen shortly after 9/11 and then shipped to Egypt. The Egyptians said they convinced him to write a book recounting his views and trumpeted the result as an achievement of their type of "deradicalisation". In fact, Sherif had fallen out before 9/11 with the men that went on to found AQ over the use of violence. Londonstani was also told by a very good source in London that Sherif had published a book in Arabic in the late 1990s in London which laid out his position and was basically the same as the book the Egyptians said proved their persuasive powers a decade later.

However, having said all that; in Londonstani's view, this article's real contribution is its explanation of the conflicting currents in the jihadi world. And its suggestion that Western support for brutal regimes in the Arab world is a key motivating factor for AQ's stance.

In the post 9/11 world, regimes like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen etc have climbed onto the terror band wagon and made common cause with Western governments by presenting terrorism as a common enemy. Western officials have been convinced that a little blind eye turning when it comes to human rights abuses is worth it if it keeps AQ types from assuming power in a major, or even minor, Arab state.

But Londonstani can't help wondering if a little historical perspective - as provided by this article - wouldn't contribute greatly to the discussion. Reading between the lines, it suggests that the men who thought it was justified to fight their oppressive governments were marginalised by those who decided the conflict needed to be escalated by attacking those who supported their governments.

In Londonstani's experience, the "swamp" of support that AQ types draw on is reduced when the US is seen to be pressuring its Arab allies to hold free elections, free political prisoners, free the press and repeal emergency laws.

When Western officials suggest that they will not let terrorists dictate foreign policy, they are thinking about Israel. But their policies have already been affected by terrorists. Our governments now offer more diplomatic and material help to abusive regimes than before 9/11, and this plays to AQ's message and contributes to our problem.

61 comments:

Edmund Ironside said...

I don't really see your argument as conclusive. Egypt and Saudi ok. But many of the other regimes are not nearly so despotic. Jordan? Morocco? Tunisia? Lebanon? This is the way I see it- you can fight these groups in opposition, or you can let them win 'elections' and fight the whole country, viz Iran. How many Iranians are 100% on board with the whole nutjob revolution? What would happen if the Muslim Brotherhood took over Egypt? I shudder to think.

Edmund Ironside said...

oh, and by the way, the word is recant, not recount

vimothy said...

Yeah, I think that the Egyptians have caused enough trouble already with their "deradicalisation" techniques...

The Angry Anthropologist said...

"in Londonstani's view, this article's real contribution is its explanation of the conflicting currents in the jihadi world. And its suggestion that Western support for brutal regimes in the Arab world is a key motivating factor for AQ's stance."
You don't say... Really?
fucking genius.
The problem for AQ is that in point of fact they come off as nihilistic nutjobs, and nihilistic nutjobs tend to alienate people. But what do our prison's specialize in making?: Nihilistic nutjobs.
So what's the response?
Supermax[Plus!!], more COIN directed against national resistance movements and picking sides ini civil wars
More brilliance from Winston Churchill's Wog

Londonstani said...

Thanks Edmund, spotted and fixed.

Jordan, Morocco (particularly under the old king) and Tunisia are pretty nasty. And you'll find significant numbers from all three states in jihadist camps. Lebanon is less nasty, mainly because the state isnt powerful enough to get itself round to being properly nasty.

My point is that support for armed insurrection gains traction when people start thinking that change through peaceful means is not possible.

First they took up arms against their repressive regimes and when that didnt get anywhere, more radical players escalated the fight ... In general terms, it follows the logic of insurrection from the invention of tribes and sticks.

Is it our job to prop up nasty regimes and earn the hostility of their populations? If we think it is, we've bought into the PR of these regimes. Lets not argue that anything is better than an "Islamist regime". Saudi is basically Islamist and fundamentalist. It's just one that whose behaviour we've modulated - to a degree.

Abu Muqawama said...

Angry Anthropologist is my new favorite commenter.

Anonymous said...

Diamondback 06

For those that think AQ and AQI has had a downward movement in their historical development should think again.

A recent find of AQI documents in Anbar indicate very clearly just how well the "network of networks" has been organized, financed and led-couple this with a vastly improving AQ reorged Algerian movment couped with Somalia, Afghanistan, and other locations---one should really think long and hard where this global Takfiri movement is headed. There are currently more IEDs going off in the global world than in Iraq.

Coupled with a new IO reorged Internet presence, and with vastly improved IO products coming out of Iraq (they are still the lead insurgent group in IO videos when the Sunni insurgent groups release their monthly battle statistics).

One should really learn to read their lips, symbology, and documents--instead of making dated generalization articles and this includes the so-called SMEs of the media world.

As an indicator---the global airplay of the Anbar AQI document find and what was in those documents took two attempts to get global airplay of less than thirty five minutes and then it died-little or no print coverage.

AA said...

So tell me Abu Texas, since Dr I doesn't answer, when are we leaving Iraq?
You know your history, but you won't talk about it. People remember Reagan and el Mozote, but you're more a Carter and Kwangju kinda guy.

I read this yesterday, and it's why I made up the new name. From last october:
"Abu Muqawama enjoyed a long conversation with an academic colleague yesterday regarding the ethics of conducting research in the social sciences in the service of national ends."

"National ends?" I thought this was all about spreading peace and democracy? That's why we back the Saudis, Mubarak, Musharraf. Israel et al.
When you want to talk honestly about the need for "free" trade and the inevitability of the great game let me know. Until then Abu Flashman, I'll just go on as I am. You're a smiling reactionary, and I suppose the smile convinces some people you're a humanitarian internationalist, but you're just a frat boy adventurer.

Here's Charlie: "This blogger is reluctant to write-off all of academia as irrelevant, tweed-lovers. Most all of her advisors did significant government consulting work,.." Most Anthropologists don't do fieldwork in tweeds, that's why you're interested in them to begin with.
Charlie isn't all that bright. And of course again, the logic is you're either irrelevant or in government service.
That's not even stupid, just bizarre. "Meet the Spartans" History is the history of farce.

vimothy said...

I wrote a blog post about this a while back, as the result of reading Charles Tily and especially Ed Lustick, who uses Tilly's "war makes the state" formula to examine the way that the "West" has prevented the formation of a strong Arab state.

I used a metaphor from microeconomics -- that of price floors and ceillings as barriers to entry to market. You can find the piece here:
http://vimothy.wordpress.com/2008/02/21/barriers-for-entry-into-the-market-of-the-powers/

Hope you like it. Problem is, I'm not sure this is true in any meaningful sense. It's just more of the conjecture that Londonstani was supposed to be complaining about at the top of the page!

vimothy said...

Basically, the idea that Western support for Arab dictatorships is a sufficient cause for Jihadi terrorism -- I'm not sure I buy it.

Post 9/11 and "our governments now offer more diplomatic and material help to abusive regimes than before." But is there more attacks on Western civillians? Madrid and London, ok, but even combined there was much less casualties than in New York.

I think, though, that it's a comforting idea that might be correct, and its comfort is its chief virtue. If only we were nicer, reactionary terrorists might not want to kill us. Well, maybe. Didn't stop Al Qaeda in the past, though, did it?

vimothy said...

That said, in so far as support (aid or whatever) for ME governments makes them less democratic, because it both takes those governments away from policies that their people might want them to provide and closer to poolicies that we want them to provide, and also provides external revenue / resources for the government that enables them to be less answerable to the citizens, then I can see why people might be annoyed with us. Hey, I can see why we're annoyed with us.

Abu Muqawama said...

Abu TEXAS!?!?! Now you've got *me* angry. I'm from Tennessee, a much more violent and aggressive state than our 'all hat and no cattle' cousins to the West.

fnord said...

angry anthro: You put it better than me, but:

vimothy writes:Basically, the idea that Western support for Arab dictatorships is a sufficient cause for Jihadi terrorism -- I'm not sure I buy it.

vimothy: its not the cause, but its a great recruiting ground & reason.

Ive been beaten (quite mildly) by coppers a couple of times, and can empathize with the anger that comes from the humiliation of lying face down, trussed like a pig, while some kid 10 years younger than you have you (and your friends) at their mercy. This is the basic human factor that is at the bottom of it all, the atom of most terrorism-movements and certainly for the jihadis: Humiliation and induced states of powerlesness causes responses by those so treated. If someone rapes you, revenge fantasies are in order. 1 out of x do something about them.

By torturing, you induce PTSD on a whole lot of people, that leads to the response of fight or flight.
And by imprisoning them together you cause bonds of interdependence to form, and allows hatred to build. In a way, FD Chief is right that all out genocide of all prisoners would be more sane militarily. The alternative is starting to teach your arab allies that they need to change direction 180 degrees. Wich will never happen. Wich is why you will not win this fight in the end, as long as you back torturing bastards, especially not while running a IO as the "nice guys".

Its not rocket science, as the good Book says: "e shall reap as ye sow".

AA said...

Abu T. I have family roots in Virginia, Culpepper County, but we sold the slaves and moved north long ago. I have family in Israel too.
But you haven't answered the question.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

I'm trying to remember all the "angry anthropologists" from my post-grad years. Beyond peevish little blog postings, how would their ire become manifest?

Aggressive frowning? Some intemperate fuming from the furrows of their cardigans? A couple of PC phrases about "hegemony" hurled in a stir of bong smoke and sandalwood?

Why, this must be a particularly angry sort of anthropologist to bleat so mightily the impotent echo of f-bombs and Flashman references.

I predict he (or she) shall get particularly nasty in a dirty Battle of the Books, perhaps by inserting a grumpy lil footnote in an obscure and unread journal. Or will conduct a right mean-spirited teach in or bang loudest in the dean's drum circle.

Certainly that's the best way to become relevant in a world of violence, beyond pointlessly goofy invective displayed in blog comment sections, creatively employing "Texas" as an insult.

I might be a bit biased, but I find the anger of anthropologists to be about as worthwhile as the chastity of prostitutes, and half as interesting.

|3run0 said...

The Islamists certainly don't want to be censored or imprisoned or barred from elections, but from that it doesn't follow that they will enforce freedom of speech, the rule of law and fair elections once in power. Besides, western support for the local oppressors is not their only grievance. They fear (quite rightly) the infiltration of certain Western ideas such as the notion that law and government should emanate from the people rather than the word of god, and the concepts of gender equality, free discussion of religious dogma, consumerism, overt sexuality, etc. Clearly:

a) Islamism (i.e., the doctrine that seeks to establish and enforce the primacy of Islamic law over all spheres of the human existence, including the personal and the political) is not really compatible with modernity. This is due to the totalitarian (rather than Islamic) nature of fundamentalist Islam.

b) Most Muslims, when exposed to the reality of Islamist rule, quickly (and often violently) reject it. Even in the Ummah, Islamism can only be sustained through force or intimidation.

c) Due to a), Islamists are by the very nature of their ideology locked in an ideological battle with modernity in general, with the West in particular, and with those Muslims who for some reason oppose their goals. Given b), clearly the only way the Islamists can prevail is through force and intimidation.

In the end, there is plenty the US can do to reduce the allure of Islamism, or to strengthen its opponents. But even under the best of policies, the Islamists will fight. They have to.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

"In Londonstani's experience, the "swamp" of support that AQ types draw on is reduced when the US is seen to be pressuring its Arab allies to hold free elections, free political prisoners, free the press and repeal emergency laws."

Fair enough, Londonstani. But wasn't this the very stuff of the Bush "drain the swamp" ME policy from, say, 2001-2006, most certainly seen by the invasion of Iraq to depose the undemocratic (to put it mildly) Baathist regime?

How swimmingly did that go? Has pressure to promote a democratic solution in Gaza turned out so well, what with HAMAS running the show? Did support for the so-called "democratic" elements of Lebanese politics spark more democracy in Beirut, or a virtual occupation by Hizbollah?

How destabilizing were the ground-level efforts in Egypt, KSA and Yemen?

By spatchcocking Libya, the two authors were discussing really two different phenomena, ones I don't believe connect all that well.

First, let's consider al-Qaeda, at least the formal, hierarchical, OBL version, as one that's focused, since 1998, on a far enemy, particularly the US and her western allies.

Let's consider Benotman's LIFG to be engaged solely in a near-enemy struggle, which is to say that they have targeted the Tripoli HQ of Muammar al-Qaddafi and his dictatorial policies.

No one like Benotman would conclude that removing the prop of the US will lead to the fall of Libya's tyrant. So, doctrinally, there's little comparison. Indeed, one could say that al-Zarqawi's AQIZ had far more in common with LIFG (and al Qaeda in the Mahgreb, et al) than formal, far-enemy al Qaeda.

So, I don't want to compare AQIZ to AQ as if they're the same product. They're not. One's a rebranded near-enemy battle that was killing US troops in Iraq only because they were convenient to their near-enemy mission.

They were led by very different people (al-Zarqawi was in Afghanistan with OBL, but never joined OBL), attracted different volunteers (including a great many Libyans) and didn't answer as much to the far-enemy AQ as Army PAOs would wish for you to believe.

Second, I don't want to compare acolytes. A young person radicalized by an AQ-inspired or even scripted online video or chat thread isn't the same sort of operator who travels to Syria to make the crucial passage to join AQIZ in northern Iraq; nor is he the soul who shows up in NW Pakistan to enter the jihad in Kashmir or Afghanistan against the (pick your heretical enemy) US, NA or India.

Third, I don't think we should write off EIJ's el-Sherif (or, as I know him, Abd-el-Qadir Ibn-Abdel-Aziz) just yet; although I agree with you that Bergen and Cruikshank are getting to this late (it was way back in November that all this was coming out).

But this is something which I dispute with Bernard Finel (click name, go to middle of his blog): He believes that the same sorts of MAMs who are drawn to Islamist radicalization are also unlikely to absorb the revisionistic teachings of el-Sherif.

I would argue a more complex "it depends." Yea, verily, some young angry men won't be touched by the theological arguments against AQ killing sprees. But I would suggest that some would, and that the deepest strata of militarized Islamism are theological.

This is something, I think, too many people overlook. There's a deep, meaningful justification for terrorism; I disagree with it, but I'm not going to overlook how scripture, history and clerical pecking order ultimately have vouchsafed its practice.

Nor shall I overlook arguments that seek to counter such justifications, especially when they come from august voices like el-Sherif's.

While Finel is quite right in stating that most terrorists aren't intellectuals, I would counter that when it comes to radicalized jihadist terrorists, intellectuals still matter.

They're just not the sorts of intellectuals most western intellectuals feel comfortable discussing.

What makes me as peevish as even the most peevish "angry anthropologist," however, is how the US has vacated the battleground of ideology/theology.

No, I'm not saying that George W. Bush or Condi Rice should attempt to make a compelling theological argument countering AQ's death cult Salafi ideology. But I believe we should broadcast or otherwise cultivate the perspectives of Islamist thinkers who disagree with AQ.

They don't need to agree with American foreign policy (heck, I don't often agree with it), but we should develop some means to air their bitchfest against AQ.

Cheaper than a missile and, I argue, far more effective.

Londonstani said...

SNLI,

Derad! .. right to the heart of the matter.

The UK is getting into deradicalisation in a bigger way than the US, at least that's how it seems from here. But that might be because we have a bigger domestic issue with radicalisation. Click on the "self radicalising" link to see some salafis working on the derad thing on the streets of London.

As for the swamp thing; yep, Bush and Rice did talk about it. And I have to say I was pretty pleased. When Rice said in Cairo in 2005 that "we traded democracy for stability and in the end got neither" (im quoting from memory, so pardon me if it isnt word perfect), i thought "Youre right there".

However, I would have been happy if that meant that the US would have made the saudis hold serious local elections (i mean, hell, they were LOCAL), and make the Egyptians release the secular liberal politician who stood against Mubarak, stop arresting the Brotherhood guys and holding them without charge and lastly, make good on its promise not to rig an election. I wasnt too keen on the idea of invading places to enforce the US's version of governance. Make allies adhere to their own promises of good governance.

Now, I covered those elections. And I remember clearly kids fighting riot police to get to polling booths. Those same teenagers picked up tear gas cans that the police had fired at them and showing me - the nearest journalist - that they had "Made in USA" all over them.

Previous commentators who critiqued Islamism were pretty much on the button in my opinion, but how does that explain why we support Saudi.. and support it against moderate Islamists, secular Muslims and secular liberals?

There are lots of strands of Islamism; one runs Turkey. We support people who put "democratic" in the official title of their country and no where else. These same countries never use the word secular when referring to themselves in Arabic for domestic consumption.

If I was Rice, I would have made Egypt respect the result of the elections in 2005. Even the Brotherhood dont think they are going to get more than 20-25 percent of the vote. It would have been smarter to let the brothers run a ministry or two and see them make good on their talk of cutting corruption and good governance.. it would help move Brother type parties to a Turkey model or Christian Centrism in European politics.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

I guess, Londonstani, I'm not ready to make the cross-cultural comparison of Turkey's mild Islamism (and how it is scaffolded by nearly a century of secular insitutions, thanks to Ataturk) to that of the MBers.

I mean, HAMAS was culled from the Egyptian MB herd, right? And what did HAMAS give Gaza? Is that the sort of governance one would like to see? Governance by missile and suicide bomber?

I have a journo friend who lives in Cairo, and she and I argue about this. She believes that it's a one-and-done thing, these Islamists and elections, whereas I, like you, believe they should be given some sort of change to f*ck up or not.

But I don't trust my instincts enough to believe I'm completely right. I well recall Algeria, and should very much dislike seeing that again.

If I want to make my point, I'll tell her that Iran's politicized Shiism at first seemed to be the best means to usher in a traditional, religious culture into modernity. I also would point to Kuwait and say, well, the parliament seems to be surviving an uptick in Islamist thought, eh?

But I wouldn't be intellectually honest if I didn't shrug and say what lawyers like to type, "but see," in their legal briefs.

But see Algeria. But see Hizbolistan and Hamasistan. But see Talibi Afghanistan. But see Somalia and but see everywhere else Islamists take over by ballot or bullet and cock up wherever they are and turn it against the US, the west, our allies and everything else that's precious to democracies.

|3run0 said...

Londonstani:"I would have been happy if that meant that the US would have made the saudis hold serious local elections (i mean, hell, they were LOCAL), and make the Egyptians release the secular liberal politician who stood against Mubarak, stop arresting the Brotherhood guys and holding them without charge and lastly, make good on its promise not to rig an election."

Londonstani, we all agree it would be great if Egypt and SA eased up. But how would the US 'make' Mubarak and the Saudis do the things you suggest? What leverage could the US realistically use? I mean this as a serious question, not snark.

We know that the US is allied with the Saudis because they have lots of oil the American economy depends on. Right now I would argue the US needs SA more than SA needs the US. So, again, what leverage the US has that would *compel* the Saudis to do the right thing? I say compel because we can count ideological persuasion out in this case...

One instrument that has been used in the past was imposing conditionalities on weapons sales; but if pressed too hard the Saudis can simply buy their guns elsewhere. And if SA is attacked or threatened, the US *will* rush to its defenses, wahabism or not, democracy or not, because it can't afford not to. It simply won't allow the world's largest supply of oil fall in the hands of someone more hostile than the house of Saud, not matter how repellent the latter is.

Londonstani said...

In 2005, Egypt and Saudi were visibly troubled by US pressure for good governance. OK, so oil prices then were not what they are now. So, at the moment, the issue is more complicated. But all these states are very sensitive to US criticism. Some receive direct aid .. and China isnt about to step in and help them all stay in power.

In 2005, Egypt's prime minister promised the nation on television that the parliamentary elections were going to be fair. The US and UK were pressing for independent observers but dropped the pressure at the last minute. The first round of the vote went off normally, but the US pressure came off after Egypt sent a high level delegation to Washington to persuade the administration that proper elections would bring Hamas to power. The MB in Egypt is a different creature to Hamas... but that's what they said. And after Hamas had taken Gaza, the administration was in no mood to argue.

The day the delegation returned - in fact before the plane landed - the arrests began and then came the use of hired thugs and riot police to block voting. On quite a few occasions, the thugs used by the police sexually assaulted women in peaceful pro-democracy protests organised by mixed secular and islamist coalitions.

These events were not reported much outside Egypt - definitely not in the states. But the developing dynamic was predictable and depressing. Suddenly the MB became the only game in town. Kids would say "the government arent Islamic, thats why this happens. An MB government would treat people properly." And many were quite openly saying that the time would come when the regime's behaviour would have to be physically opposed.

There was increasing pressure from younger members of the MB to form armed groups to defend against the govt thugs. Its worth noting that despite thousands of arrests, torture and the rest of it, the MB hasnt turned to violence to oppose the govt. Mainly since it knows it would play into the govt's hands.

Finally, sometimes we get too caught up in tags. Many Arab governments are well practised at being all things to all people. Sometimes a govt is banning books because they "insult Islam", sometimes its jailing Islamists.. (often one follows the other). What counts is staying in power, not what you call yourself. Mubarak comes to the US and gives an interiview on NBC where he uses the word secularism at least six times. But he's never used it in Arabic.

Bruno, you ask, what can be done? Well, more could have been done in 2001 and even 2003, in 2005 and 2006 we had less options. Now in 2008 with high oil prices and a looming China, our options are further limited.

But just noting and condemning actions goes a surprisingly long way on the ground. at the very least it limits the argument of extremists that "The west talks democracy except when their friends jail you".

|3run0 said...

LS, thanks for the reply, it was very informative.

From what you describe, it seems to me Mubarak would like nothing better than having and armed MB offshot to fight against. With the state security apparatus at his disposal, such a group could be quickly contained, and yet it would be a perpetual excuse against true democratization or a suspension of the eternal state of emergency. Up to now even a non-violent MB functioned as such an excuse (one plausible to the Americans at least, thanks in no small measure to Hamas), but it is a threadbare one at best.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

"These events were not reported much outside Egypt - definitely not in the states."

Londonstani, the only time Egypt is mentioned in the states is when Salafis machine gun our tourists boarding the boat to Luxor, or HAMAS tears down a wall Cairo quietly begins to rebuild, lest more future Luxor slayers flow in from Hamasistan.

Come to think of it, I can't recall the last time I read a journo's byline in English about Egypt except Betsy's, and that's only because she's a chum.

So obviously I understand that what an Egyptian bigwig says in English on Charlie Rose isn't the same thing he's saying in Arabic on Omar Ward al-Hamir.

But that doesn't change the paradox for American policymakers: What is the more odious choice? The known corrupt, incompetent, dictatorial, increasingly dynastic government of Mubarak? Or the unknown (fill in the blank) sort of government that would arise with the MB?

I say this having friends in the MB movement. Would they still be my friends if they were given the Ministry of al-Jahiliyya and I was one of their wards?

The wonderfully democratic part of my brain screams that MBers are people, too, and if you prick them do they not bleed, yada yada yada, give them the vote and let them run a ministry in a coalitional government with a few Copts and Mubarak's henchmen.

The songs of experience echoing through my skull, however, remind me that some of their kindred spirits haven't done such a swell job supporting human rights or cheerfully allowing dissent in Somalia, Hamasistan or the parts of Iraq they temporarily held.

I would rather like to sip a beer the next time I touch down in Cairo without longbearded cranks putting power drills to my kneecaps for ordering one. In Istanbul, I can still drink one without the Black & Decker treatment. But what about Mogadishu?

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

As for US leverage with Cairo, Londonstani and Bruno, I would suggest this pdf (click name).

Antoinette said...

SNLII, you said:
"But I believe we should broadcast or otherwise cultivate the perspectives of Islamist thinkers who disagree with AQ."

and:
"we should develop some means to air their bitchfest against AQ."

I like the way you think...thank you and Londonstani for your plain speech.

Where are the "Islamist thinkers who disagree with AQ"? Could you provide some links to their writings?

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

Much of their writings haven't been translated into English (help me here Londonstani, do you know of any?), but that doesn't mean that their views haven't been conveyed in the English language press.

The New Yorker recently did a turn on Dr Fadl (I used the Londonstani Eyptian-like "el" rather than al-Sharif). Click on my name for their gloss.

Abdul Hameed Bakier brought up the same questions in an earlier Jamestown essay

http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2374135

And the CTC "Sentinel" carried an important blurb by James Brandon about it, too, reproduced at

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/CTC%20Sentinel%20-%20Profile%20of%20Tehrik-i-Taliban%20Pakistan.pdf


I highly recommend the third for its timeliness and learned perspective.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

Click on my name for an even earlier Sentinel story about the al/el-Sherif/Sharif business.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

And, Antoinette, you can click on my name for a wider discussion about (failed) US effort to ideologically confront AQ.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

And for those who read Arabic, here's a story that would suggest that everything isn't always rosy for the longbeards.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

On a final note, Londonstani (and sorry for hijacking this thread, I certainly didn't mean to), I pose a question:

Let's assume that the US pulled out any and all support for KSA, Kuwait, Mubarak, et al. Would that end al-Qaeda's fight against the US? Or would the demands just shift to new ones?

Londonstani said...

On Muslim AQ baiters, the main article i linked to has a good few UK-based guys. They are more doers rather than the thinkers. You can see Abdel Haq Baker, of the salafist Brixton mosque in action on the video link. From a non salafist point of view, there is Hamza Yousef in the US.

As for pulling support.. if that were to happen, Israel would remain the obvious rallying call. But say, Israel for some reason stopped being such an emotive issue and the support for dictators ended, would AQ type violence end in its tracks? I think in that highly unlikely scenario, it probably would.. BUT.. only if it happened today. What support would those who wanted violence draw on? OK, some might want violence for the sake of it .. but they are unlikely to get support, funds, recruits or sympathy.

But, If we fast forward and AQ ideology evolves - as it has done - and finds new fertile ground, who is to say what vested interests might develop in continuing the fight.

But, if I may reply to a question with a question; say the US never got round to supporting KSA, Kuwait, Jordan Egypt et al in the first place. Would OBL have decided the burning towers of Beirut necessitated burning towers in NY? Would the far enemy rhetoric developed at all?

in all likelihood, those said states would be bumbling towards some sort of internal accommodation rather than limping under the burden of governments that wouldnt survive without outside help.

There' no inherent reason the people of the Muslim world should hate the US. I dont subscribe to the "their-religion-programmes-them-to-kills-us. they-cant-help-themselves" school of thought."

I remember reading pre-WWII newspaper clippings from the Arab world. Many commentaries were talking about "American tutelage" as preferable to "european mandate". I think there was something in the league of nations along those lines and possibly a commission. A historian might be better able to comment. But my point is that perceptions and reactions (violent or not) depend on conditions and circumstance, they arent written in stone.

AA said...

SNLI
I decided to go by AA after reading the ridiculous comments in response to the criticism of the HTS program. I'm not an anthro, though I have friends who did fieldwork in Madagascar and New Guinea .
No tweeds there either. There's a well known anthropologist who worked with tribes in the Amazon Basin, and there used to be rumors he ran guns for them in their fight with ranchers. It's not something he talked about, but his students did.
Again I'm not an anthro, but I know a lot more about them than you. I'm surprised you haven't heard of Napoleon Chagnon.

Me, I'm 6'1" 200 lbs. 20 years in construction. I have on old friend who used to make his living as a cage fighter, He was 75-5 in his (illegal) career.
I train with him now, just to stay in shape. I'm too old to fight, but I still do more than frown.
I'm still waiting for one of you idiots to answer my question. Don't sweat it, I give up.
I've got books to read.

Tschüss.

fnord said...

aa: With your charming way of putting things, your questions seem to disappear in the characteristics of the blogowners you obviously derive much pleasure from chunking down. The only question I can see is "When are we (the US) leaving Iraq?". Wich is an interesting question, and one I think nobody can answer at the given moment. One unfortunate consequence of having invaded the country in the first place (stupid, stupid) and diverging from the original o-plan by a good 5 years and counting, is that the US forces still seem to be winging it on a Friedmanunit by Friedman unit base. As far as I can tell there is no long term plan for Iraq in existence in the known universe. SO your question becomes rhetorical and not a request for information, since that information does not exist. (What is it with this tendency for namecalling that the internet seems to draw out of everybody?)

fnord said...

P.S: Ive known a couple of streetfighting anthropologists too. I took one year of anthro at uni, and my mate went on to do a masters in urban culture and religious conflict in suburbs of Oslo, mixing with some quite hairy criminals of international origin. Hes an old anti-nazi and kram yaga student as well. Hey, Barth went to Pashtunia in the 50s and did original fieldwork there, no coward he. SO SNLI, your generalizations are as stupid as everybody elses... But I guess youre just a anti-intellectual knuckelscraping jarhead, right?

vimothy said...

Really interesting thread! NOt had chance to read the comments yet (supposed to be working), but just want to say,

Fnord:

You're missing the point. Of course, being beaten up police officers will probably make you want to fight back. And yes, being tortured by the Egyptian state might make you want to violently overthrow it.

What I'm not sure of is a causal relationship between Western support (aid) to ME regimes and jihadist violence. Have you read Clint Watt's study of Iraqi foreign fighter data (1)? You should do. It seems most foreign fighters are from KSA -- ok, might support your thesis. They're probably mighty pissed about the undemocratic US/UK support for the undemocratic regime in KSA, and that's why they go to Iraq to murder Shiites.

But the next largest supplier of foreign fighters, and the country with the greatest "fighter intensity" (i.e. number of fighters/100k Mulslims)?

That would be Libya.

1. http://www.pjsage.com/Beyond_PJSAGE_v1.pdf

vimothy said...

Right now I would argue the US needs SA more than SA needs the US.

Not really true. You have to look at how much oil the US imports from KSA (not much), and what proportion of KSA GDP comes from oil exports (nearly all), to understand exactly how badly KSA and most other net exporters of oil would do without their natural resource to exploit.

There's no reason, however, that aid can't be tied to some sort of democratic conditionality, nor is there a reason that the uses that aid is put to shouldn't be independently audited. If we are serious about spreading democracy, that's what we should do.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

"Napoleon Chagnon"

Well, you know what you do when you "assume."

The point was that what anthropology was isn't what it is, and probably never really was. Chagnon might be the most quoted anthropologist by war historians (Keegan comes to mind first) because he actually did something the vast majority of anthropologists won't do, which is to take seriously how war is manifest in culture, and how culture manifests war, except in tsk-tsk asides and grumpy footnotes.

Part of the problem, of course, is that anthropology, like other parts of American academia, fell prey to the post-Vietnam scourges of PC-ness, radicalized (in tweed) politics-cum-studies and the litmus tests of identity grievance in lieu of meaningful scholarship.

Exactly so with those who studied warmaking, because they tended to analyze dead white men who killed other (mostly white) men, often in Europe, often detailing masculine pursuits to dominate alien peoples for colonialism, capitalism, blah blah blah. These professors became the first victims, and it's why Chagnon, for all his very fine scholarship, largely was rejected by follow-on generations of pasty anthropologists who thought studying obscure female basketweaving trends in the Pampas would feed their mythmaking of all peoples as inherently peaceful and loving, once sufficiently rid of colonialism, capitalism, blah blah blah blah.

Since I come from this very background, I'm a bit more aggressive about the failures of anthropology to be relevant. As a discipline, it can't long survive the musty quarantine of the university. This is a beef I have with many COIN practitioners: They identify the value of "anthropology" to COIN (duh, to which I would add all sorts of obvious disciplines, including folklore, sociology, popular cultural studies, et al), but often fail to realize that there isn't much within the dry and masturbatory realm of anthropology, as it currently exists, of much value to warmakers.

The number of anthropologists sufficiently creative, intelligent and receptive to notions of warmaking is a small one, and those who enterprise to apply their obvious gifts to the study of war are badgered as "imperialists" or "warmongers" by their very guild.

Charlie, et al, are being wry by dressing these people metaphorically in tweed, which for them is perhaps an inside joke seeing as Abu M, Charlie, et al, are, well, fully immersed in academia, and indeed at some of the finest citadels of thought.

Londonstani said...

It might be useful here to make a couple of distinctions:

1. We arent just talking Western aid as in food, blankets and some cash. But tacit approval of mass arrests, extra judicial executions ... stuff like police going into villages in tribal areas and stripping women naked in public squares as a way of making their husbands and brothers give themselves up. And they do it in nice shiny American made vehicles. In other cases, take Jordan and Egypt, the US allows these countries preferential access to the US market. Only businessmen with good links to the govt get the opportunity to make money from these arrangements and so it becomes a tool of patronage. At the same time, people like Tunisia, Egypt and Jordan make sure any outside (EU, US etc) funding has to go through the state. Ie. the EU cant give funds to a centre promoting voter registration or female health care without it going through the government.

Saad Eddin Ibrahim, a secular liberal Egyptian sociologist, in his 70s spent more than a year behind bars after the govt accused him of some sort of treason for taking money from the EU without permission. Among other things that annoyed the govt, he was planning to organise young Egyptians to be unofficial vote monitors.

2. labels are misleading.. what you assume to be the actions of an "Islamist" oraganisation could well be carried out by one that sells itself as "secular". 2a) labels are generally set aside in favour of wielding power. The Egyptians in power would happily go to war with Israel if they thought they could win. Lets not assume they are more able to compromise because they are "secular".

3. Lets not judge all Islamists to be the same. Its not particularly useful. Tunisian Islamists have said they wouldnt outlaw alcohol, Egyptians said alcohol would only be bought by Christians. The old Algerians would have drilled your kneecaps for saying the word. But, that is still pretty simplistic. The Syrians are supposed to be secular and massacred thousands in Hama. That doesnt mean all secular regimes in the Middle East cant be trusted. Are the Sudanese still Islamist, or have they happily cast that robe off?

Also, why are we assuming that leveling and moderating influence of the democratic process doesnt apply to Islamists? Even the most ideologically extreme realise when theyve made a mistake and not managed to carry the masses with them. (see post on Omar Bakri). Whether you call it democracy or not, the need to appeal to the masses is unavoidable.

3a) Lets employ some subtlety when we observe these groups. The Libyan state was busy employing terror against the West in the 80s. Libyan jihadists busied themselves fighting the state. The West was not their enemy then. The West only became their enemy in the context of the occupation of Iraq.. and, so far, Libyans have largely limited themselves to the near enemy fight. (there is one notable exception that comes to mind) but, as i said, AQ's ideology is morphing and evolving.

3b) Lets not assume that a current situation or perception amongst Jihadists has been true since the dawn on Islam. Iraq has moved some towards a view of the West that they would not have previously had. As a senior UK security official once said to me, "We've played into their ideological hands"

4) Islamist groups change, have internal divisions etc and we can work with that. i saw in Egypt the MB change its track on banning cable tv and cards in cafes when the local unemployed youth they were trying to attract said, "are these old men mad. we are unemployed! what would we do all day?" the MB guy won (or was allowed to win that seat) and didnt ban cards and cable.. he got round to trying to clean the streets and provide medical care like people wanted him to... the process works.

Finally, its worth keeping in mind, that in the arab world, a communist is as likely to pray as an islamist.

tags are usually bit pointless. eg, the quasi-formerly-islamist regime in sudan is trying to label a darfur rebel leader who used to be a government military commander an islamist terrorist... yeah, its complicated out there.

Londonstani said...

Saad Eddin is an interesting figure.. while he was in prison he interviewed many of his Islamist jail mates. Now, Saad Eddin is no Islamist but his findings were that pretty much all of them had some terrible story of death, mutilation or torture at the hands of the police/paramilitary forces.

Also, the govt tried to paint Saad Eddin as a US spy during his trial. the govt-controlled papers were full of innuendo and pure slander about his links to the US. The fact he has jewish in laws came up too. And this from a state that gets about $2bn in direct aid from the US and has a peace treaty with Israel. So, an ally is playing to the gallery on the "we all hate the evil imperial US" line. The MB dont actually say such things. In private or public.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

"Lets not judge all Islamists to be the same. Its not particularly useful."

But let's not also assume that Egypt's MB would be the tame Islamists found elsewhere.

That's my point: Their kissing cousins in Gaza became HAMAS, and if the MBers in Cairo would become as such we might agree that it wouldn't be ultimately good for Egypt, the US, Israel or anyplace else.

The Islamists in Khartoum obviously aren't the same as those (out of power) in Tunis. But what risk should you wish to run? That Egypt's MB will be more like Tunisia's wannabe powerbrokers, or like Khartoum's actual powerbrokers?

Again, I say this as someone who instinctively feels that you're right and that it would be best for Egypt to become more democratic, even if such a reform might lead to an Islamist reaction that is bad for the rest of Egypt.

Moreover, at what risk security and stability? Before 2003, I would have been cheering louder for democracy, democracy, democracy as being inherently good and sanitizing for any nation, even those hidebound dynastic regimes in the ME.

But after watching the forces of violent tribalism, theology and ideology unleashed in Iraq, do we still hold this truth to be self-evident?

I would like to say that I do. But I'm not sure that's intellectually honest.

vimothy said...

Londonstani:

Thanks for the very thoughtful post, much more nuanced than my knee-jerk missives.

Couple of things.

Aid is a complex and thorny issue. I certainly do not mean "blankets for the cold, rice for the humgry" when I say aid. Aid can include that, of course, and that stereotype (humanitarian aid following some kind of disaster) may be one of the few instances where aid can actually do some good.

But generally, I believe that aid is "bad". If you look at the work of, e.g., Bruce Bueno de Mesquita or Bill Easterly, you can see that aid is not connected to growth or good governance for some very logical reasons.

What you call "support" must manifest itself somehow. Its money or trucks or advice or something. Aid is just shorthand for that. No one should think that all aid is humanitarian. It is far from that.

My point is not that "support" or "aid" for ME regimes includes tacit approval of oppressive practices (abhorent though they undoubtedly are), but that aid is basically a bribe to the government in question.

"Aid" buys support for our interests. Doing so has a couple of effects: It encourages the government to enact policies that are not generally policies that the citizens their approve of or want. In that sense, aid is undemocratic. And it also enables the government to rely less on the people (i.e. it provides "rents" - a free revenue stream, which the government can rely on instead of having to grow an economy to tax). In that sense, too, it is undemocratic.

The stuff you identify in Jordan about preferential access to US markets is exactly what I mean. This should be no suprise to students of politics because these rregimes exist only by virtue of limiting access to power and its benefits. Hence even humanitarian "aid" is rarely just distributed. It is taxed. Giving money, access, machines, or whatever to foreign dictatorships in exchange for policies that we like will never make them anything other than less democratic and more entrenched.

You know: that's why they take the money in the first place!

vimothy said...

However, are jihadists reading Bill Easterly papers? I doubt it.

If aid to oppressive regimes "causes" jihadist violence, why doesn't it cause violent antipathy to the West in non-Muslim regions? Why do Syrian and Libyan fighters turn up in Iraq with such regularity?

It's ideology.

I'm not saying that aid / support / whatever to brutal dictatorships is a good thing -- obviously it's not -- I'm just questionning the degree to which this is a motivating factor.

In a way, I hope that it is. Easier to solve!

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

Vimothy, I think my point about AQ is this: Their obvious immediate goal is to defeat their near-enemy dynastic, corrupt dictatorial nation states and replace them with some notion of a caliphate based on Islamic juris prudence.

What OBL, et al, determined in 1998 was that it was the US, primarily, that buttressed these near-enemy states, and without US help they would collapse. Ergo, attack not only the US, but that part of the US that is softest, that will call for the abandonment of these corrupt states. This is a doctrinal decision, and it was executed by terrorist attacks on the totemic symbols of American power, targeting the civilians within, using the transportation infrastructure itself to inflict mass casualties, and the communications infrastructure to magnify the wound.

I contend that if the US abandoned these corrupt nation states, AQ would desist from attacking the US and return to their real goal, which are near-enemy allies of ours.

Had we adopted gradualist surrender to AQ's earlier demands (removing troops from KSA, et al), AQ simply would've racheted up the demands, both against us and our allies in the region. I don't for a second believe AQ would've relented or spared one American life.

Nor do I believe that the endstate of AQ's mission would be better for those currently living within the borders of their putative caliphate.

Nor do I believe that US strategy would be served by abandoning these, frankly, odious allies.

Londonstani makes the important point that US aid to these states could be tailored to open them up democratically. OK, I'll concede that this is partly true, but that doesn't satfisfy certain risks: What, indeed, happens if our aid prods Cairo to bring more MBers into government, and the chain reaction is the implosion of the Egyptian state into a Khartoum-like debacle?

Yes, our "support" for Cairo might have led to less aggression from AQ, but what did we gain? A strategic victory for AQ?

I don't want to harp on the Egyptian MBers because if we were being honest we'd say that AQ's leadership has a dysfunctional relationship with all sorts of MB and MB-like movements in the ME.

OBL, Zawahiri, et al, don't say nice things about HAMAS because they believe the movement sold itself out to Iran and then took on the trappings of governing a nation state (or whatever Gaza is) rather than working for the revolution to usher in the caliphate, blah, blah, blah. I haven't been reading the recent Salafi traffic online, but I imagine the announced "truce" between HAMAS and Israel didn't go over well in NW Pakistan.

I predict that even if the US started giving millions of aid dollars, Soros-like, to pro-democracy Islamists in Egypt, these MBers still would have to face the wrath of AQ over accomodating themselves to nation-state governance and abandonment of the true cause, blah, blah, blah.

These issues circulated with Qutb in his dealings with the pan-Arabists over many of the same issues Londstani raises today about Egypt's pathologies. I'm half-expecting Londonstani to say that Mubarak, like Nasser in 1952, should just name a MBer to some prominent post (Qutb had been rumored for the Ministry of Education).

But I'd suggest that many of the same divisions that existed in 1952 are the same ones that flourish in 2008, and AQ would punish today's version of Qutb should he choose to join a government in Cairo perhaps more harshly than they even would an American in Kabul.

fnord said...

"But I'd suggest that many of the same divisions that existed in 1952 are the same ones that flourish in 2008, and AQ would punish today's version of Qutb should he choose to join a government in Cairo perhaps more harshly than they even would an American in Kabul."

But, snli, wouldnt that be a *good* thing, speaking on a large scale? As seen in Iraq, when AQ shows its truly nihilistic fanatic hand, isnt that when mainstream islamists like MB turn against them and anihilate them?

"What, indeed, happens if our aid prods Cairo to bring more MBers into government, and the chain reaction is the implosion of the Egyptian state into a Khartoum-like debacle?"

There are huge cultural differences between Cairo and Khartoum, starting with the tourist industry and the lack of Egyptian Janjaweed and continuing into a completely different demographic structure. I truly can not see a Khartoum-like government succeeding in Cairo. Also, the argument that a legalisation of the moderate religious forces will lead to a general uprising ignores the forces of the army and the middleclass in Egypt being what it is. On the other hand, the obvious hypocricy of the US position is hurting any credibility you may hope to regain on the famous "arab street" somewhat mightily. Nobody expects the US to invade and democatize the whole of the ME, but when the realities differ completely from the rhetoric used in propaganda, it just makes the US look dishonourable. In the age of the internet rhetoric actually matters more and more, and the support of policestates is a big part of radicalizing many western youths who feed of the Illuminati myths. It is to hope that Obama will at least make some token gestures to open up the allied states in the Gulf, if not there is a whole generation coming with enough technical savvy and enough anger to make AQ v3.2 something mighty indeed to behold. I miss communism as a enemy.

Londonstani said...

There are abstract thinkers and then there is popular support. And popular support for Islamism has been growing for a couple of decades. Some have argued that this is because other options have failed, making the Islamists the only ones left. But, the Islamists of the MB school havent achieved much and so we move into the direction of violent takfiri-ness. And what was a minor fringe position moves increasingly to the centre ground. However, I cant imagine it will actually ever BE the centreground. As SNLI points out, takfrir jihadis are great if youre a kid in Cairo when they are battering the Soviets (or giving America a black eye) and you can feel all proud. But when they come to your neck of the woods and stop you doing anything fun, it gets tiresome.

On the MB, my experience with them is that they are also hierarchical and unaccountable... much like the people who run the government. They arent by nature very militant.. but the young people (something like 65 pct of Egyptians are under 30) are increasingly demanding a tougher stand in reaction to the govt's policies.

Leaving aside Islamism, the Polisario fighting Morocco are the perfect rebels. They dont actually do any fighting, are all secular, hold music festivals and try to peacefully lobby. And guess what, they arent getting any nearer to their goal. And guess what again, there is a growing combative salafi trend growing in the camps.. its depressingly predictable.

fnord said...

londonstani: Polisario is an old favourite of mine, an ex-girlfriend spent considerable time down there. Talk about getting arsefcked three ways. They would merit a post by themselves...? (Hopeful looks...) It would be such a shame if they fall into extremism.

|3run0 said...

Fnord, I'm sure you meant something else, but you shouldn't write stuff like ;-)

"an ex-girlfriend spent considerable time down there. Talk about getting arsefcked three ways."

In any case, I find it unlikely that Polisari itself would turn into nutjobs. Rather, other more militant groups would arise or start recruiting among the frustrated youth in the refugee camps in and around WS.

patrick said...

Robert Pape and Michael Scheuer have cogently revealed the reasons for unrest of the peoples of the ME and Central Asia.

Pape states "what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland"

Scheuer cites the reasons for the attacks upon America: USA support of Israel and its indifference to the Palestinians, presence of U.S. and western troops on muslim lands, the U.S. support of countries that oppress Muslims and U.S. support for tyrannical governments.

Beer drinking or prohibition in Cairo does not compel young Arab's to fly airplanes into American buildings. Our policies in the ME cause the attacks upon America. This does not mean that we should cave to the demands of the militants. We should examine and alter our policies that would allow us to placate the "moderate" militants and reduce the number of our enemies. Then we can kill the radicals in an atmosphere that would not further enrage the moderates.

Basically, the Brother in Syria or Egypt hates Mubarak, Assad, and Israel more than he hates the USA. By altering US policy in the ME, the Brothers will focus on Israel and the autocrats, not American civilians in office buildings.

This talk is verboten due to the Lobby, but until we change policy, we'll be in the same situation.

patrick said...

It's good to see that SNLII has been chastened by the war in Iraq;

"Moreover, at what risk security and stability? Before 2003, I would have been cheering louder for democracy, democracy, democracy as being inherently good and sanitizing for any nation, even those hidebound dynastic regimes in the ME.

But after watching the forces of violent tribalism, theology and ideology unleashed in Iraq, do we still hold this truth to be self-evident?"

Soldier, while you are translating arabic text for our govt, MEMRI, or some other Likud think tank, keep in mind that a future attack on Iran will worsen the situation in the ME. Tell your friends, be an American patriot, and help avert further disaster.

AA said...

Just to add that a fully honest and open election in Iran would bring in reformers, while fully honest and open elections in Israel brings us occupation.

And who more represents modernity in Turkey, the Islamists or the military secularists?
The answer is obvious.

And who represents modernity in the US, nationalists with language school certificates and Ph.D's, or beach bunnies and fashion photographers at home in 2 or 3 cultures in 3 or 4 languages? The answer again, is obvious.

Islam is modernizing and secularizing. Culturally in the west Muslims are the new Jews. And if they help bring about a return to a more bookish, literary intellectualism rather than the Christian Cartesian technocratic one we operate under now, we'll all be a bit better off.

Your focus on the Long War is just making the inevitable take that much longer.

Antoinette said...

soldiernolongeriniraq, many thanks for the links to the articles about Islamist thinkers who disagree with AQ.

fnord said...

"Fnord, I'm sure you meant something else, but you shouldn't write stuff like ;-)"

lol. It was regarding Polisario. But seriously, it seems to me that Polisario is the perfect example of the US failing to stand by its principles. Marokko is desperate to placate the west, a deal for Polisario could be quite easily cut in exchange for foreign aid, etc. They would also be perfect hunter-scouts for AQ bases in the Maghreb, etc. I do not understand why these supressed subgroups do not get coopted into the fight against the takfiri nihilists in exchange for a fair deal, it makes perhaps too much sense. Same goes for Hezbollah, though I guess that train maybe run..?

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

"Beer drinking or prohibition in Cairo does not compel young Arab's to fly airplanes into American buildings. Our policies in the ME cause the attacks upon America. "

Oh, I very much disagree. I would argue that a dynastic, secular, pan-Arabist dictatorship in Cairo that allows the free consumption of beer, the unveiled legions of pretty-legged women, the political legitimacy of mere Copts and the deification of globalistic symbology do far more to unsettle a growing, increasingly unstable yet very traditional urban youth culture than US fighter sales to Israel or even the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

For the vast majority of those in the region, what truly is motivating their anger, whether it be in the slums outside Cairo or the tony suburbs of Kuwait City, is the clash of a very traditional, rural, religious way of understanding existence with a new, globalized, disruptive and destabilizing newness.

When one begins to believe that one's nation state is eternally corrupt, eternally beheld by one family or own oligarchy, and eternally rigged to thwart one's grievances, then one gets angry. One confronts all the changes flooding into the region, and one finds revolution in a return to older values, more pristine norms, myths really, but powerful myths told best, and most ironically, through new technologies.

AQ isn't the only Islamist game in town. AQ is somewhat unique, however, in that it doctrinally postulates that by removing the US from the ME, the ME will fall to AQ and all the old orders shall be restored.

Most other Islamists, as Londonstani pointed out, are quite different from AQ, and their enemies are nearer.

It isn't that the US supports Israel, it's that THEIR nation (Egypt) has a peace treaty with Israel, or THEIR nation has lost war after war with Israel (name any Arab country), or THEIR nation is led by illegitimate cronies who keep the man down (ibid), yada, yada, yada.

This is an important consideration. It's why I suggest that even if the US began firebombing Israel tomorrow, tossed roses at the feet of the Muslim Brotherhood and quit buying spot oil from KSA these people would still try to overthrow their near enemies.

Sometimes, I think we buy too much into self-loathing, or assume that the US is the root cause of the pathologies of the globe.

Quite the opposite. Egypt alone has enough pathologies to keep it in good stead for another millennium. While the US could do somethings to aid democracy and prod our putative allies in Cairo to reform, this won't 1) Do an iota to dissuade AQ from war against us; 2) Necessarily lead to real longterm good, largely because neither we nor anyone else can accurately predict the social forces that might be released and their ultimate effect; 3) Actually matter.

While I would agree that it should be tried nevertheless, it's only because I'm a lefty who believes myopically that democracy is still something that's overwhelmingly a good thing, colonialism a bad thing, and shall avert my eyes from much of what has transpired in Africa since 1989 or even Iraq in far fewer years while making those points.

vimothy said...

Patrick,

Pape's work is seriously flawed. Read this paper:

http://www.princeton.edu/~clinton/Published/ACMR_APSR.pdf

And I also recommend Martin Kramer's well thought out response to Pape at a debate at the Washington Institute's Special Policy Forum:

http://www.geocities.com/martinkramerorg/PapeKramer.htm

AA said...

It isn't that the US supports Israel, it's that THEIR nation (Egypt) has a peace treaty with Israel, or THEIR nation has lost war after war with Israel (name any Arab country), or THEIR nation is led by illegitimate cronies who keep the man down (ibid), yada, yada, yada"

And that the US supports THOSE cronies.
---

"antoinette said...
soldiernolongeriniraq, many thanks for the links to the articles about Islamist thinkers who disagree with AQ."

These are your readers Abu T.

vimothy said...

SNLII,

I take you point. Ok then, AQ basically made a strategic choice to attack "the West" -- after receiving US aid themselves -- because, in the first instance, KSA was proven insufficiently Islamic by virtue of their invitation to US forces onto holy sand following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

If my memory of Lawrence Wright and the rest is correct, what annoyed OBL and his buddies in the first place was that the the dictatorship invited US troops to al Jaz and they didn't leave, not the fact that the KSA is ruled by a dictatorship or that the dictatoship was corrupt venal or whatever -- OBL had obviously done ok out of that arrangement.

Then the problem becomes the fact that KSA leadership are insufficiently Islamic, evidenced by that troop presence, and doubtless also by the drinking and whoring and gambling, etc.

Obviously though every situation is different and Saudi jihadists are going to be motivated by different things to Egyptian or Libyan jihadists, and even within those groups there's disagreement. And that seems to me to be part of the problem. Give aid to dictatorships - bad. Going onto the peninsula to help peoples suffering under dictatorships - also bad. Pressuring countries to hold elections - bad. Not pressuring countries to hold elections - also bad.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

"AQ basically made a strategic choice to attack "the West" -- after receiving US aid themselves -- because, in the first instance, KSA was proven insufficiently Islamic by virtue of their invitation to US forces onto holy sand following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait."

V, we have to be very careful here. OBL was at war with KSA before he was at war with the US. It wasn't exactly a hot war, but it was a war nevertheless. During the crisis with Iraq in 1990, OBL (who had returned to Arabia as a hero of jihad) in a sense extended a truce to Riyadh, but only if the authorities would invite him to lead an army of believers against the apostate Baghdad dictator.

In previous years, of course, OBL had been invested in a different group of what we now call "Afghan Arabs" (this is derisive, by the way). It was termed "Maktab al-Khadamat" and you can google it if you want more information, but it absorbed his efforts against first the Soviet regime and latter the successor satellite in Kabul, and still later the NA.

By 1990, however, he was seen as a threat to the Saudi royal family and their state. The demands he made on KSA were intollerable. His anger against the Saudi family actually began before the US even entered the Kingdom, and never abated.

Suffice it to say, the canard that the US ever supported OBL's MAK forerunner to AQ is bogus. Mostly, the income came from private donations (including a great deal from prominent Saudi zillionaires). This donor network also became the bedrock of AQ's fundraising system.

When al-Zawahiri convinced OBL to depart MAK in 1988, OBL moved away from a central precept MAK endorsed -- fitna, or congress, with all Muslims, even their odious governments, against infidel powers.

Zawahiri, of course, was involved in the MB struggle to bring down the Cairo government from the time he was a child. As an adult, he became an important leader in EIJ plotting the murder of Anwar Sadat and a coup that would replace his government with an Islamist/military arrangement.

When OBL went over to Zawahiri in 1988, he therefore was going over to the near-enemy fight, and the fitna was revoked. Over those two years, however, he (among others) began the doctrinal change that assumed the US was the reason all these states existed, and not from an internal support.

Zawahiri had arrived at this conclusion earlier, in 1985, while in hiding in Peshawar, the Pakistani hub of the "Afghan Arab" underworld.

I find Zawahiri's overriding "Takfir" assumptions (especially the role played by the US) to be dubious and so do the vast majority of peoples who live in these nations, most especially KSA, but there's some validity to it. Obviously, one can't get past the reality that various forms of national socialism, communism, Pan-Arabism and dynastic succession (largely created by colonial powers as they carved up the colonial empire of the Sublime Porte) didn't exactly deliver upon the promises.

Regardless, as I mentioned, by 1988 OBL and Zawahiri already had determined that the chief problem in the ME was the corrupt, dynastic governments that blocked the return of a pan-Islamic "government," and that the main support they had was US military and economic power.

To therefore attack US military and economic power, even directly in the heartland of the US, would be the culmination of this doctrinal change. The US must be driven from the ME, and the ME states would fall to the forces of AQ and related insurgencies.

By my reckoning, OBL and Zawahiri have been at war now with the US for two decades. We didn't truly go to war against them until seven years ago.

Soldiernolongeriniraq said...

I was somewhat hesitant about linking to this, Antoinette, but only because it requires a certain amount of theology.

But if you want to do the heavy lifting, click my name (I found it in English!) for an important way states can address the theological justifications posed by AQ and related insurgencies.

Obviously, it's not something Condi Rice could clack away at overnight, but it's within the ether and is widely debated on its merits.

vimothy said...

Ah, right: I see that I have the chronolgy slightly skew-whiff. That's what happens when you read too much crap -- it all gets jumbled up!

So is there a sense in which the AQ nexus "called forth an enemy", that it began with a goal of Islamic revolution, encountered various problems (both endogenous & exogenous) and ascribed these problems to a mostly irrelevant notion of US "support" (at the time something like, don't like the Soviets? Have some cash!), which then actually occured as a result of AQ attacks?

What I'm getting at is did AQ / EIJ or whoever (the acronyms -- I'm not a military man -- I get confuzzled ;-)) ascribe what were probably mostly their own failures to some notion of US support -- obviously, they are God's warriors so the faults couldn't be their own -- and then and only then (like you say, after some 13 years) did the US / "West" really start seeing these regimes as a buttress against Jihadi violence and start bribing them for GWOT-positive policy outcomes?

vimothy said...

The whole issue of democracy is very interesting to me. I sympathise with you, SNLII, when you say that you want to encourage democracy even though you fear its outcomes. However, in many ways I think that's back to front.

I believe that the situation is analagous to the development debate that we recently touched on. On the surface, it is relatively easy to know what a prosperous economy looks like. Balance your books, float your currency, encourage the private sector and hook up with the global economy. Simple in theory. Unfortunately, not so easy to go from A to B in fact.

Equally, simply saying that democracy is good and should be encouraged is kind or profound and vapid in equall measure. I recall Paul Collier discussin African states where democracy was encouraged, but was understood only in its most limited sense as meaning "elections". There no reason why majority rule in and of itself will produce the most socially optimal outcomes. And sure enough, Collier recounted how in these states democracy has resulted in a race to the bottom and in fact often causes a sharp increase in violence (e.g. Kenya).

So, the important thing is not to encourage elections at any cost, but to realise that when we say "democracy" and when we experience democracy here at home, we presppose a whole raft of institutional and social norms. The "strategic coordination" public goods that enable challengers for power to coordinate a campaign: free press, the right to meet, the right to stand, etc. Independent vote counting. HE access. An independent judicary.

It seems to me that the building of effective institutions, which includes an electoral system yet does not privilege it over other prerequisites of some kind of liberal government, is the truly important goal.

elf2006real said...

Londonstani,

"In Londonstani's experience, the "swamp" of support that AQ types draw on is reduced when the US is seen to be pressuring its Arab allies to hold free elections, free political prisoners, free the press and repeal emergency laws."

Can you substantiate that? Really, I am listening. I might offer the following counter-arguments: The Hamburg cell and the various cells in the UK hardly operate in a repressive environment compared to any ME regime. And while they may not be completely assimilating into the societies, ummmm, whose choice is that?

I will take polite umbrage at this: we are "supporting" the admittedly repressive regimes. OK. We've overthrown one repressive regime (Iraq) and have quite clearly propped up the Green Zone mafia (although that bunch was elected).

The rest? Our "support" largely extends to buying their oil, offering economic aid to keep their people from starving, and yes military equipment to stave off foreign aggression; of course, it can be used to repress your own as well.
Are we responsible for Burma and Zimbabwe as well? Why not?

Now look. Saudi, Egypt, the rest...they are to varying degrees repressive..But they are also sovereign nations. Really world, what do you want of us? We do business with the people in power, and we are "supporting them". We intervene and we are imperialists.

Fnord,

Respectfully: of the 19 Hijackers on 9/11, how many had ever been arrested and tortured?

On another note; the "self-radicalizing" takfir in the West: Something to it, but analysis of captives from Sinjar in Iraq shows recruitment is primarily social, followed by family, followed by religion.

smallwarsjournal.com/mag/docs-temp/69-watts.pdf