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15 comments:
Oh dear Lord Vishnu! Have mercy on our souls.
AM
**Do not destroy before reading**
I know you said you disregard everything Alan Dershowitz says..but you may want to rethink it. He is one of the Nagl's of his (revolutionary) generation of lawyers. And he is calling for "Torture Courts" as well as a new set of laws for terrorists- "Worshippers of Death".
I think involving the Law in war is a terrible mistake for 3 reasons:
1) It takes the Law into War. This means -as A.D deduced-you take into murder. And torture too.
I really don't think we can have 2 sets of Laws and keep them separate..not on paper. Hence the necessary concept of the "Other".
You drag the Law into a sewer elsewise.
2) It drags American's before UCMJ Kangaroo courts* or Human rights tribunals that are blantantly biased against us and the West in general.
3) In the short term it has inflicted staggering defeats on us...to name a few;
*Saudi offered to hand over UBL while he was transiting from Sudan to Saudi. Clinton admin didn't think they had "legal" cause to take him.
*The FBI didn't think it had legal rights to search Zacarias Moussaoui's laptop.
*Intelligence and Law Enforcement working same terrorists had "wall" between them-couldn't share intelligence. Right from DOJ.
*We now have to go to a court for intercepts overseas during wartime.
*The trial lawyers have 40 lawsuits against telecom companies that helped after 9/11. New collection shut down for a week while National Intelligence lawyers negotiated with the telecom's to resume signals intercepts.
I am sure you know all this already, but a review is always helpful.
In summary..all laws concerning war now should be under review..including any prior treaties.* Until that happens...and I'm for winning first..Article II of the Constitution give POTUS all the authority he needs.
*and after the turn of events at the Haditha trial we need a review of UCMJ too. It's been more than 40years in any case.
I was saddened by Bush's decision, but---unfortunately---not all that surprised.
elf2006real-
How can the UCMJ be said to be "blatantly biased against [Americans] and the West in general" as you claim? The Uniform Code of Military Justice is American military law enforced by American military personnel. If anything, the military court is biased against enlisted personnel, prosecuting and convicting the enlisted and the non-commissioned officers while allowing their commanders who bear ultimate responsibility for actions taken under their command to get off with not even a slap on the wrist-- since it's unbecoming to investigate, let alone indict, a higher ranking officer.
In addition, the point of internationally sanctioned tribunals is to prosecute serious breaches of international law that the accused home country's courts are unwilling or unable to prosecute.
Ian,
Reposting here--"2) It drags American's before UCMJ Kangaroo courts or Human rights tribunals"
I knew I should've put all caps on the *OR*.
You have elaborated the point I was making about UCMJ. It is biased against enlisted personnel...since many of our Officers aren't man enough to take responsibility if it affects their career...or these days their liberty. Abu Gharib is the prime example (CDR's took immunity or the 5th...and didn't warn their men to do the same).
International Tribunals: as a former service-man I would regard it as an act of personal betrayal, treason against the United States if I or any service member were betrayed to any such body.
An act that would void the oath of office, and the social contract.
And that's if they weren't biased against the US..in favor of the International left and their allies...which now include the Islamic Fascists. They are not impartial nor well meaning.
And people in favor of de-establishing the nation state in favor or International or Regional (undemocratic) bodies should think hard about what the nation state was established to bring to an end...horrors such as the 30 years war for instance.
Personally I think such actions merely pave the way for global wars of religion, tribalism and ethnicity (like the one were in now) and possibly the global Caliphate.
United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT) Article 3 states:
"1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights."
----------------------------
Or, in other words, any moderately competent lawyer can now argue that it would be illegal to extradite his client to the USA.
Then, if anything, the international tribunals you fear are a consequence of either an unwillingness or inability by either military authority or the civilian leadership to obey its own laws (such as the Geneva Conventions or the UCMJ) or enforce proper penalties when they are violated.
As the law and order types like to say "if you do the crime, you do the time."
Still, you haven't made the case that these international tribunals are biased against Americans. So far, they seem to have mostly prosecuted regimes unfriendly to the USA, like Milosovic and his collaborators.
Give me a break on that pathetic drama
Matt,
1. The UN hasn't had a good moment since the 1960's..and they were limping at the time. Try to remember it's chief architect was Alger Hiss-a Soviet Spy.
2. I don't believe we signed that treaty, and if we did..we should withdraw.
3. Same for the UN itself. We were right to stay out of the League of Nations, and wrong to impugn on our national soverignty by joining (well..founding)the UN.
4. Extradition? Kidnap, Interrogate, Kill the SOB. And the lawyer as well if there's spare time. No laws for war.
**********************************
And nearly every US POW, captive, or hostage since WW II has been subjected to some or all of your aforementioned treatment. Not one person was ever tried for it.
So what's in it for us? Except we have our hands tied, while our enemies laugh their way out of GITMO and back onto the battlefield. In short...another scam on us.
Ian,
I recognize no authority other than our own over any American solider or operative or their chain of command to bring us to "International Tribunal". And it would be treasonous to hand them over. I would go to war with any nation that held them over.
I guess you missed the part where I said that would nullify my oath.
I wasn't talking about my oath to sing Kumbaya at the UN. So I take this point seriously. Why do you think Bush refuses to agree to any such arrangement...as did Clinton?
Because Americans would scale the White House gates and have a good old fashioned lynching...as we should.
Don't worry about our chain of Command. They are more than willing to send all the junior enlisted they can con into answering their questions up for stiff (10 years) sentences. The people that gave the orders...ah..they get immunity.
To testify against their men on what their orders were..then the men get slammed for obeying "unlawful orders".
Finally...you had posted..
"As the law and order types like to say "if you do the crime, you do the time." -----
OK fine. So we're criminals.
Master Criminals, pal. Would you like to serve the warrant?
Cuz I wouldn't.
Us pesky euros are slandering your flag again with our wild stories ;-):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/10/ciarendition.terrorism
elf-
Whether you recognize international authority or not, the United States ratified the Geneva Conventions, and they are part of UCMJ. All U.S. military officers, enlisted persons, and actions are subject to those laws. Conversely, so are other administration officials in the civilian chain of command- the President, Vice-President, Secretary of Defense, et cetera. Of course, rank has its privileges, like de facto immunity.
International tribunals are only necessitated when the nation's indigenous justice system is unable to deal with it's own criminals (hence the Serbian government's willingness to turn Milosovic over to the International tribunal.)
The unwillingness that the Bush administration has regarding international courts has nothing to do with a concern about innocent American troops being brought before international courts, it's about an administration protecting itself and senior uniformed officers who carry out illegal policies. President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld, and General Miller (amongst others) were all very happy to see the prosecution of Lyndie England et al.-- they were the sacrificial scapegoats (and in reality, much too minor for an international court to even bother with.)
The point being that both the military justice and civilian justice systems are broken. Enlisted persons and junior officers are prosecuted for the crimes of senior officers and administration officials-- that's what exists currently.
Ian,
The day one of my superiors (gag) tells me to hand over anyone is the day I raise the Jolly Rodger, no kidding. It's also the day I recant my oath and will let deeds speak that the social contract itself is no longer binding.
Sadly you are right about sacrificing Lydnie England, et al.
You are wrong that our government is "criminal" in fulfilling it's sworn duty to protect us. Would have been much better if they had stood by the doers of their commands -yes Abu Gharib was policy not creative jr enlisted-and it would have been better had the bastards not engaged in blatant war profiteering under our very eyes.
They and the Republic may well have cause to regret their betrayal.
The Geneva Convention we recognize is for soldiers in uniform. Research the original treaty and you will discover harsh penalties for fighting out of uniform, because it brings more harm on civilans. Under those codes, which are all we agreed to we could execute everyone not in uniform we meet. UCMJ and regs add to that (unwisely) and don't allow us to execute unlawful combatants on the spot, as the Geneva Conventions that we ratified do.
The UN does not have jurisdiction over one speck of American soil, or one cell of our bodies. I would fight room to room to stop that from coming to pass.
Ian...Fnord et al...may I suggest something? Part of the problem with Europeans in dialog with us is not just a different world view..it's that you really don't understand us. We just don't think like you, outside of tiny pockets in NY, LA, and DC...and of course academe.
Our center would be your right, your center would be too left to be electable. Then there's the matter of the nation-state, we very much believe in ours...and arm ourselves and our state because of it.
Europeans have this faith in a UN that doesn't exist. I've seen the UN inaction...most people here would see them off our soil in 48 hours were it up to them. One example: a couple of years ago the local union of caterers in NYC had a labor dispute with the UN at the HQ in NYC. The union staged a 3 hour walkout.
When they returned everything that could be pilfered from the kitchen and mess was...silverware, plates, glasses, food, etc. The only things left were the tables-because they are bolted to the floor.
Then there's the various diplomatically immunized crimes they commit here..shoplifting to rape. We really don't like them.
And that's when they are not organizing really serious crime. I don't need to go into it..we all know.
Ian/Fnord/Euro et al: your magnificent 2500 year old civilization is about to be assimilated by birthrate, P.C, legalities and the pimp slap of terror into the most backwards form of Islam EVER. While there is still time kindly raise yourself from slumber while you might save yourselves.
Cordially,
ElfReal
Fnord,
The link got cut off at end.
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